Jason Averbook, Digital HR Strategy at Mercer

Siobhan Savage: Welcome everyone. To Skills Connect. I'm Siobhan Savage. Skills Connect is a podcast where we have conversations with the most bold and the most responsible change makers in the world. So well, welcome Jason.

Jason Averbook: Thank you. No pressure. No pressure. No, not at all. Not at all having me.

Siobhan Savage: So for folks, everyone knows who Jason is, but for anyone who's been hiding under a rock, Jason is one of the.

Folks that was a believer in what I was doing right at the beginning. So not only is he a fan favorite of my little babies from experiences at conferences, but also is one of the most thoughtful, innovators of our time and anything connected to not HR tech, I would say work. I think Jason has been really leading the charge on our broader thinking around work tech and how work gets done and the innovation and transformation of work.

Jason is a senior partner and a global leader, at Mercer. How long ago were you doing leap gen? How long has been that transition from your It's a little over

Jason Averbook: two. It's just about two years, right? It's a little over two years right now. Two years and a couple months.

Siobhan Savage: Wow. That time flies, doesn't it?

It does. It's crazy. You've got over 25 years experience across hr technology transformation. You've partnered with the leading organizations in the world. Your sweet spot is really challenging folks in how to rethink, redesign, to deliver and evolve workforce experiences and transformation. Recognized also as an author, a speaker, a thought leader.

You'll see him on main stages at every major conference in the world. So welcome Jason.

Jason Averbook: It's great to be here and I think you're reading an old bio. I think the 25 years is probably being kind. But, no thanks for the kind words. Really appreciate it. And, I don't know the, that bold thing.

I don't know another way. So, whenever I do live events this, I always just hope that I, stay within the box and don't end up, yeah. Picking some rules somewhere. So it's great to be here.

Siobhan Savage: Rules are made to be broken. Jason, in this era of work, I think what's required right now is real rule breaking behaviors.

In order for us to really lead, we need to feel right. So I think you're, you've fit perfectly in the pool. Responsible.

Jason Averbook: Well, I broke a rule on my own podcast, with Jess Von Bank. Which got at the explicit label, instead of a business label. I love it. Now I have explicit label, so I'll try not to swear on the I

Siobhan Savage: Love it.

you're dealing with an Irish woman.

Jason Averbook: Oh, yeah, that's true. And I was in Dublin last month. I, and, yes. It was fun.

Siobhan Savage: I love it. I love it. So there's so much to ask and we've got so little time. So I'm gonna try and keep us focused on the stuff that I'm hearing everyone talking about right now.

You have helped companies transform for decades, and we are in this moment, I believe a once in a generation shift that's happening right now today, and the way that organizations are approaching, specifically their strategy, their digital strategy, I feel it's broken and I would love for you to really help us shape.

what we should be thinking about, what is broken in the way that folks are thinking so that when they can really think about how to take some meaning and value from this session today, that they can hear you whisper in their ear, Jason said, don't do these things because they will not work.

So, would love to understand what do you think is broken in HR strategy, work experience strategy today and what are you seeing is really happening in customers and how they're feeling.

Jason Averbook: So thank you for that question. So first of all, I love interaction, so I'm gonna try not to talk too much without having you jump in.

'cause you and I together are gonna be the accretive nature of the.

That some people showed up to hear me swear I saw in the chat, which, Hey Bob, I'm not gonna do just intent. But so really quickly, and I think what's, and the way you said it is really interesting when you talked about this generational change and I'm really thankful that I'm alive during it.

Multiple people have heard me say that before and I say it a lot because I didn't think it was actually gonna change. So, I've been doing this in the HR tech work tech space since I was 19. So that's over 30 years and I, nothing's changed. Truly, nothing's changed. I always tell the story that I started implementing payroll on mainframe DOS - based systems, and you don't even know what that is.

Dos, as we moved to Windows, as we move to cloud client, server, then to cloud, then into web. For the most part, HR has stayed the same. We've done little things self - service, but for the most part we've been doing things the same way. We still have job codes, we still have FTEs, we still have pay bands and salary bands, et cetera.

And every couple years there's a tease everyone's gonna work from home. Oh, that's maybe true, maybe not true. Oh, it's the gig economy. Maybe not. Guess what? Jobs don't matter. Tasks matter. Yeah. And what we're finally seeing in this transformative mode that you just explained here is not just work transforming, but the world.

Siobhan Savage: Yeah.

Jason Averbook: Transforming. And it's really important that why this is going to stick this time compared to these other times. It is not because of work transforming, but because of the world transforming. Now, the challenge is that we don't know what it's transforming. We're all on a wild ride together, which means we need to be on a speedboat and a jet ski, not on a barge, okay?

Mm - hmm. Which all makes us look in the mirror at our organization and ourselves, and I say, where are we? Which gets us into, so on that concept of transform, which is made up of mindset, skillset, and tool set. So do I have the right mindset as a person and as an organization to change?

Siobhan Savage: Mm - hmm.

Jason Averbook: Transform change.

Two, do I have the right skillset to transform? And three, do I have the right tool set all well the, it's the rockiest time ever and that's sums up where we are, which is why I'm so excited to be alive during it. Other people would be, mm - hmm. You're crazy to

Siobhan Savage: No, I hear you. I'm

Jason Averbook: I'm with you.

But for me, it's the most exciting time that we're gonna have. And it's not a technology change.

Siobhan Savage: Mm - hmm.

Jason Averbook: Technology's a part of it, but everyone's, it's ai, it's just it, shit stuff. Sorry. It's not it. It's business. It's business. And it's us as humans.

Siobhan Savage: Yeah. No, and I a million plus ones you to, I feel that this is a privilege and a pressure all at the same time to do what I'm doing.

That we get to do this. We get to do this. And I just left a call two seconds ago, with a really senior leader and I said, you are a once in a generation leader. How are you going to choose to lead in this moment? And he was, what? And I was, seriously, this is a once in a generation shift and how you show up and how you choose to lead in this moment is going to matter for generations because the decisions that we make.

As leaders are gonna impact whether or not we evolve our workforces or we harvest people out of jobs and just go straight. There's this choice that we're gonna make in terms of how we lead and how we lead the world. And I think for you don't have to work. You choose to work and you get to work on some of the best thinking and strategy.

So, I'm completely there with you, but what I am seeing though is rabbit in headlights. Across the industry. I think a lot of folks are genuinely not sure about what does this mean for me? What does this mean for my company? What does this mean for my family? The industry, there's so much uncertainty.

How are you seeing how folks are dealing with all of the changes that are happening?

Jason Averbook: So just really quickly, one of the things that's really important to understand and to think about from a mindset standpoint is when we say change. It's important to frame change as change is our strategy.

It's not the enemy.

Siobhan Savage: Mm - hmm.

Jason Averbook: Okay. And I have to lean into the change, not back away from the change. Okay? Mm - hmm. So, in a world where everything's changing, we are dealing with, and I'm not hype, I'm not master hype here trying to say this. We're dealing with systemic change in almost every institution that we have.

Government education, humanity. And then, oh, by the way, there's work. Mm - hmm. You jumped right into work and I was on a call earlier saying where someone jumped right into HR Tech, and I said, can we just stop for one second and talk about the person the human?

Siobhan Savage: Mm - hmm.

Jason Averbook: every human is going through a systemic change.

To most of its systems, which is why we see those trust barometers as low as they've ever been. Or we see consumer confidence as low as it's ever been because of that change. So all of that being said, most people are, is they're looking to try to, what I to say, see around the corner. Mm - hmm. Trying to see around the corner and say, how do I prepare.

Myself, my family, my organization, my team for what's next. And that's how I see it. And it's really easy to make this too big. Okay. 'cause I just made it really big. So, let's break it down. And one of the reasons I love what you do with tasks is starting to break things down. Where let's not say, oh, we need all new people.

Siobhan Savage: Mm - hmm.

Jason Averbook: , come on. We need to rethink FTEs. Yes. We've needed to do that forever. We need to rethink performance management. Oh my God, we've needed to do that forever. Yeah. Yes. But let's start with, let's see around the corner and realize where we are right now in April of 2025 and what we're gonna need to be in June of 2025.

Siobhan Savage: Yep. Yep. I agree. And I think the. The thing that I've seen, especially since I've moved to the us, a lot of talk about skills. A lot of, and I think, you've been pretty vocal about hrs obsession with skills. Where did that all? Come from was, 'cause I wasn't here in the market when that was all happening here.

we got the teal end of it in Asia Pacific because when the US does stuff, the Asia Pacific, everyone follows. Right? So where did this skills moment come from? Was it hype? Was it a necessity? What was happening there? And what do you think HR leaders are still missing when it comes to understanding the skills versus the work?

what's your take? 'cause there's a lot of talk about skills and whether it was hype or not, right? Not right.

Jason Averbook: So, to do this, it requires just a tiny bit, little tiny bit of history. Mm - hmm. Which is just a switch from the manufacturing economy to the knowledge economy. So when I used to run supply chains.

I used to manufacture products. It's pretty easy. A product has a skew. A skew for a bottle of crystal light. Drink squirt. Is this,

Siobhan Savage: what is that?

Jason Averbook: Don't even ask. It's stupid. It wouldn't be, it wouldn't be accepted in today's world, but, yeah, we're trying to make America healthy again, right? But anyway, different story, different day.

But all of that being said, that's, we know what that is. When we go from a manufacturing economy where I make this to a knowledge economy where I have a person, it starts to be, how do I measure the tangible value and makeup of a person? It's pretty easy to do that with a hard good, it's really hard to do that with a person.

Okay, so when someone starts to say, people are our ENT asset. We've heard that all along. It's very easy for me to say, Hey, guess what? My cup is worth this, but my person, what's it worth? When we pay them a hundred thousand dollars a year, that's not what they're worth. That's what we pay them. So for a long time, Shavan, we've been trying to think about how do we put value on people?

Okay? The human capital accounting of people. Okay, so instead of just counting heads, how do I make heads count? In order to make heads count, what I have to do is know what heads I have. Just I know I've got four of those bottles of drink squirts. Okay, I've got four of what and when I've got four managers, but a manager means X, Y, Z, and A.

How do I put a value on that? And then how do I build. A people chain, I built a old supply chain when I don't know what I have. Yeah. It, I started a company quite a ways back called Knowledge Infusion with an amazing woman. Her name was Heidi Speary, and she always talked about talent strategy, meaning buy, build, have, or outsource, buy, build, have or outsource.

And one of the things we've been struggling with forever, shaman is knowing what we have. And I don't have a three, because that's what my performance rating was. Yeah. So how do I measure the tangible value of people? And that's to me why I love the concepts of competency frameworks. Please note what I said.

Concepts, I didn't say execution of. Yeah. Competency, frameworks of skills, of tasks, of what makes up a person. I love that stuff.

Yet to see is how we actually turn that into actionable executables to drive outcomes, and that's why I'm so excited about what AI combined with. The right thinking can actually bring to work. Mm - hmm.

Siobhan Savage: Yeah. I think the other thing that I have found, all that

Jason Averbook: babbling makes sense.

Siobhan Savage: No, it did.

And I, and it made me think about the part that you said about knowing who your people are and the value on lock that they create for an organization. Not directly correlated to how much you pay them, but what is the value creation around an individual? And one of the things that.

I have found in my journey of building Reejig was when we focused it, we all started in an era where the skills - based moment was a thing. When the market was really hot and things were really good and it was a really, everyone was going up and to the right, but what?

I had always been trained in my backgrounds in workforce optimization. So I always started from the work and then I had what was the work and what workers do we have to complete that work? What's really interesting and I look at back on my reflection I was an idiot because I should have stuck to that original concept.

But I got into who are our people and what can they do when actually it's the other way around. Organizations especially know in a world where efficiency, productivity, velocity is the most important thing, organizations need to understand what is all the work and then what are the workers, because the workers in that moment could be sure, your internal people and the value on that and creation that they do.

But it can be agents, it actually can be a fix, a flex, an agile, a digital, whatever way you wanna describe the workforce DNAI think that has been. A thing that has been really important and given the cycles of the economy and they're getting short, these ups and downs are getting closer and closer together.

you're up, you're down, you're up, you're done. It's, it used to be that you had a pace and that you would have a lot longer and you knew we coming into recessionary and then you would get our way out of it. But this is intensely and the narrative and the. I think a lot of folks that I'm talking to at the CHRO level and at the executive level are basically dealing with this consistent ricochet moment of the world is rapidly changing and to your point, understanding what is the work that we've got, but who are the workers and what is the value unlocking the creation they have is critically important.

And it's not just about skill. It's actually, it's the framework and that vision that you have. So. I think you've been spending, you're one of the ones that moved the first I seen in market to truly expert, get an expert in generative ai you went head first, threw yourself into it to embrace that moment as well.

When you look at it from your perspective or maybe some of me's global research, but. Are you seeing generative AI truly impact HR today? And will it, do you think this is real? Because I'm still having calls with customers where they're, but it's three years away. I don't need to worry about it today.

what's your take on that, Jason?

Jason Averbook: So Shavan, thanks for saying all of that. So first of all, I don't, I look at things based on impact on people, not a impact on function.

Siobhan Savage: Mm - hmm.

Jason Averbook: Okay. Then, because what makes up the function, the people. So if there's a generative AI is a piece of technology,?

And the first time that I'll never forget the moment exactly where I was in my home when my kids and I were sitting around the island of the kitchen and we went on to chat GPT and did one little stupid thing and they said, oh my God, this, I will never have to write a paper again.

And what the moment, to me that was so fascinating about that. If you think about Windows, what? When I, when we first rolled out, sorry, I'm gonna get old for a second. When I rolled out Windows for Dummies training back in my day, no one said, oh my God, this is so cool. They said, you actually just took away my ability to do heads down, data entry, and now I have to use a mouse.

And then when we went to cloud, people said, oh no, we're never gonna trust our data, et cetera. In this case, they actually said, oh my God. I can actually see how this is going to change my life. Yeah. Not it's life, but my life as a human. So for me, that's the lens. I look at it shaman. And the reason that when you say I dove head first into it, I, first of all, I think anyone that doesn't dive head first into it is you're in a, you're irrelevant.

that's a very bold statement, but I. I really believe that you're, or you're on the brink of irrelevance. 'cause this not something you hire someone to do. This is not someone you outsource, not something you outsource to it. You have to embody it. I wrote a piece on my substack the other day about, this isn't about adoption.

This is about embodiment. Mm - hmm. You embody a new way of being. AI just happens to be the technology that's bringing us there. So Shaan, I think that it's going to change the entire body of work of every single company and every single organization in the world. Now, what does it mean to hr? It should be tied back to what is hrs biggest opportunity.

Okay, so if I'm struggling about how do I figure out, I need to do a reduction in force? And I'm trying to figure out how to go about that before you start going about it the old way. Go about it in an AI first way and say, Hey, let's think about where my people are. Let's think about my data. Let's predict what I'm gonna need before, and how do I use AI to do this?

Or if I'm in an organization who's still delivering intranets and portals that look Link farms and aren't personalized to me, guess what? That's where I'd focus if my people are leaving. 'cause I say it's too hard to work here. Generative AI isn't gonna, and AI is, by the way, the reason I didn't, just something.

I've been working in AI since I started doing payroll implementations when I was 19. Okay. It's this generative part that really has now become available because of compute power. Mm - hmm. I don't feel I'm new to ai. I feel AI is finally something that HR people are talking about. They've just been using it for 30 years and not known it.

Siobhan Savage: Mm - hmm. Yeah. The fact that a computer, I'll never forget the moment that I went into it and I was, wow, computer's talking to me. It was that moment of. Wow. That feeling of just this. And my question mark that I, and I remember where I was in Paris at the time and I remember thinking to myself, if this is really real, there's a lot of hype around Generat AI and marketing and stuff, right?

So it's you cut through it. Could this potentially do. What I think it could do. And I went really deep and I was building an AI company too, right? So, not new to ai, but you, but new to the concept of not every user in the world can have access to a talking computer.

what? What could happen in a world where I. They're not just talking to me, that they're taking my work, that they're doing most of the grunt work for me. And I was obsessed because, I was thinking about it, but what happened to me not so long ago, I was hosting a workshop in the garage in New York.

And, we give folks access to, login, this whole pal HR leaders and most of the room couldn't log in.. And that was a, hey, okay moment. Maybe we need to upskill the community a little bit here and really educate because if folks are really expecting to call it to do this for them, then our workforce transformation moment is probably not gonna have the magic that it could have if folks are rather.

Dismissive of it or, so I think what you said where you were a bit cheeky was actually, I think you're right. They have to, or they will be irrelevant because someone else will get that job and you won't, and that's why we're seeing a lot of CHROs in early retirement right now, because they need to usher in a new wave, in my opinion.

Jason Averbook: Yeah. And shaman, I do this, I, so I do about, I love your concept of measurement, of breaking down skills into tasks. And I know that's not we're talking about today in detail, but as an example, I use that all the time in my day - to - day life, where today I do 62% approximately. I'm not anal by any means, but 62% approximately of my tasks using voice and not keyboard.

Siobhan Savage: Mm - hmm. Wow. That's actually, that's high. That's actually pretty high.

Jason Averbook: So 62% of the things I do, I try not to touch my track pad or try not to touch my keyboard. I try to only use my voice.

Siobhan Savage: Hmm.

Jason Averbook: With a generative eye filter between my voice and the machine. Yeah. So instead of me learning how to use the machine's learning how to work with me, okay?

Mm - hmm. And be, if I can do 62% today, think about what I'm gonna be able to do in a year. You're gonna be a cyborg. Well, I'm not gonna be a cyborg, but I'm gonna be a human who has a brain and it connects to a machine. Instead of me learning how to use a machine, I should never even have to learn to sign on.

Siobhan Savage: Yeah. Yeah. Any system.

Jason Averbook: Back to your, I should just say, I wanna think about how do I optimize my workforce for the fact that I'm just announced I'm laying off 20% of my people in my manufacturing business Intel did earlier today. Yeah. I should just say that and then have a conversation with the machine.

I shouldn't learn how to navigate and use it. Bob just mentioned, I did a post this weekend on my substack about voice. That's all I talked about was voice. And how much gets lost. Just think about this for a second. From your brain to your fingers to the keyboard. Think about how much gets lost. Yeah.

Versus if you can just talk. All of a sudden get something and get, a little addition to it with ai and all of a sudden your thought becomes reality so much faster. Because I can't type, I'll never forget my fifth grade typing teacher, Virginia Rodin, who I mentioned in my substack, I got up to about 35, 40 words minute.

Yeah. I talk a lot more than 35, 40. Words a minute, and my brain definitely does more than 35, 40 words a minute. So think about how much waste we're having in creativity.

Siobhan Savage: Mm - hmm. No, that's actually, I've never thought about it that. The, my I'm gonna challenge myself now to be more voice dictating in a lot of my thinking and content and stuff as well.

Indie, my little one's got dyslexia. And actually Chad, she has been a game changer for her because she could not do things, and she said, right, and she has really struggled with reading and writing dyslexic. That kids with dyslexia have a really short, framework of facts because they don't know, they don't, they don't learn and read as much so as other kids, so they're not getting as much facts.

So every day she's asking chat toif for new facts that she doesn't know so that she can process. And it's actually very cool. So I'm actually gonna try that. I'm, and pin that, article into the. Channel when you can because I'm interested to read it 'cause I wanna challenge myself.

'cause I think you're right, especially if you're an outside processor, when you're talking to folks and you creatively think more and add on, the more you interact with humans, I think you're actually right. The other thing as well, I'm starting to see, and this is a very American thing I'm seeing right now.

versus the UK or apac. It's not just generative ai, it's actually digital factories as well. So you mentioned about Intel, there is a wave that's happening right now where CPG and FMCG especially are under a massive amount of cost pressure. And they're not just looking at generative AI from a knowledge worker, but they're looking at factories and creating these digitalized factories.

I think that the, that is exciting, but then that becomes super scary to me because I'm, if this all collides at the same time and if we haven't got our shit together in terms of workforce strategy, there is gonna be impact. Because where do folks pivot to? What's your take on, am I being dramatic?

Or, do you think that's a real risk? 'cause I do.

Jason Averbook: So three things. First of all, you said the H word. Yes. So now we're even one to one

Siobhan Savage: and it's my podcast and no one can fire me. So it's exactly, so I'm not gonna get in trouble,

Jason Averbook: , just because you've said it now too. But the second thing I would just say is that something that I, we do a fried, Von Bank, a colleague of mine and myself.

and much more than a colleague, a friend, and an amazing human in the space. We do a live show every Friday, and one of the things we challenge our community to do, and I challenge my team to do here, is what I call, OBT one big thing. And I think that the concept when you said, I dove first hint into generative ai, I challenge myself to do one big thing every day.

Now you don't have to start every day. You can start every week. Speak, but one big thing a week to change the way you think about how to attack a problem. Okay. So in order to start using voice, you don't just say, now I gotta figure out how to use voice and learn. Mm - hmm. It's a mindset first. Hey, what if I didn't do it this way, and what if I did do it this way?

And to me, that mindset gets you into that. Trying that one big thing and keeping track of it, and then making sure you record it and talk about it so that it reinforces it. But back to your, the shit part. That, if we don't get our shit together, if I could just say it differently since you said shit, we don't have our shit together.

every organization in the world right now is laying, excuse me, is laying people off and they're not the right people. Every organization in the world right now is hiring people and they're not the right people.

Siobhan Savage: Yeah.

Jason Averbook: Every educational system almost.

Siobhan Savage: Yeah. Not

Jason Averbook: completely in the world, is educating people on things that aren't the right things, so we don't have our shit together.

Yeah. But that's, to me, where we dive in. That's the opportunity for us to all dive in and say, how do we now get our stuff together so that we then do progress and stop, I said, worrying about headcount reports and start worrying about do I have the right people? I. In order to say, do I have the right people or know if I have the right people?

I need to know who those people are, know what they're made up of, and know where I'm going from a North Star standpoint as an organization. So, yeah. Okay. I should, I probably shouldn't have said you're irrelevant earlier. It's sticking with me. Or maybe I should have, but if your company decides you're not gonna jump on AI for three years, cool.

Just don't. But guess what? Then don't hire AI people. Because you're wasting. Mm - hmm. Mm - hmm. Oh, I think the cool thing is I better open up some recs for AI people. You have no idea what the F you're talking about, if that's your approach.

Siobhan Savage: Mm - hmm. Yeah, it's an interesting thing what you just said, imagine that you are someone, you or me and your AI not native, but you're, your brain is programmed to do that and a company wants to be seen to be doing AI first, and then they hire someone you and I in there will die because, we'll be in a situation where the environment as well, we need to be able to challenge and I think some of the.

The OBT to your referencing point with the of work is. In a world where most companies are not designed and are not there yet, how do people on this call or leaders listening to this after, how do they navigate being in that world where they are the disruptor and status quo and no one's got their shit together?

'cause that's the other thing. It's, how do we convince everybody that this is really important and now we need to do this? And also here is the mindset, how would you prescribe. The mindset for someone me who is generally quite, restless in terms of being in a big company. And if I was in an employee, I'd probably get fired right now.

how would that work?

Jason Averbook: , so the important thing to me is to know what your box is, or I, what I to call your barbed wire fence. So what you can run in and what space you have to run in before you end up killing yourself by, running into the barbed wire. We're working in, I'm doing a, our great friend Mark Coleman, who runs the Unleash Conference, I'm doing an event with Mark or at Mark's event for a one company.

That's asked me to come in and said, start with a blank canvas. Mm - hmm. Pretend there is no HR function except it's calling. Yes. Start with a blank canvas. Yes.

Siobhan Savage: And where

Jason Averbook: would you, what would you do? Forget our systems. Forget our processes, forget our titles, forget all of that. Say what would you do from a mindset, skillset, and tool set standpoint.

So that's starting at a functional level and then aligning that to your North Star is key If you're an individual. Back to what you were just say, when you were saying, Hey, I could, I would get fired in a company no company. Once again, I don't know what you called me earlier, bold trailblazer, or I just say things that I feel no company takes care of you today.

Siobhan Savage: Mm - hmm.

Jason Averbook: And I'm going against things I probably should not say, but at the end of the day, most companies care about what

Siobhan Savage: Money,

Jason Averbook: money or sustainability of their business and stay, or their shareholders or who invest in rent and things that. So for me, if I'm a human and I'm saying, what do I do, I learn.

And in an era where anyone can learn anything today for free, mm - hmm. What a glory. Seriously. Yeah. We are so blessed to have that because I'll never, I share the story when I speak my parents, I was so attached to their dumb encyclopedias. You don't have to know what I'm talking about.

But, there was volume A, volume B volume.

Siobhan Savage: Yeah. And

Jason Averbook: I would read them. I'd be, why am I doing this? And it was because I was so attached to knowledge. Yeah. But to, and, but that's all I had access to. Maybe a paper that came delivered on Sundays. Now the fact that I could look, while I drive, which I'm gonna do in a couple hours and I actually know what I'm learning about today.

Mm - hmm. I'm learning about something called stoicism.

Siobhan Savage: Yep.

Jason Averbook: Okay. Because my son who's 20, talk to me about stoicism and I don't understand it. So I'm gonna have a conversation with chat GPT while I'm driving to my other son's baseball game about stoicism. To learn about it that is. I don't know if anyone realizes how privileged we are to have that for free.

Yeah. But we all can learn anything at any time for free, and I don't have that. People are still stuck in these, oh, I don't have a degree in that, or that's not what I was trained in, or I'm waiting for my company to train me. Stop,

Siobhan Savage: just

Jason Averbook: do it. Yeah. I

Siobhan Savage: mean. Even I get asked all the time, I think it's 'cause I'm a woman and I've got a company and people ask me a lot of the time, how do you build a company? Blah. I had no idea what I was doing. I think I've learned so much because I've got a co CEO helping me run my company right now.

I literally operate with co - piloting my thinking on a regular basis on everything from p and l to margins, to branding, to content, to product. Strategy to pricing. It's across the board. It really, so there has never been a more privileged era, in my opinion. It's so cheap to start a company.

It's really company is all about brand, community and distribution. And then serve them something that they really need. And all of the parts you don't know, you can figure it out just in time, which is what I do. To enable me to do it. And I think that's a, it's so, it's such a privilege.

Jason Averbook: And I wanna touch on that because Bob just put something in the chat and I wanna make sure I re that, I tie it to it there's way too many people who are trying to see five years from now. There's way too many people that are trying to see, in my opinion, a year from now, we've gone from a world where we've had roadmaps of how to do things, a three year roadmap to a world where we truly have a navigational GPS that changes by the day.

So at the heart of all of us, we're good humans. At the heart of all of us, we think we know what's best for us. We think we know what's best for our families. We think we know what's best for our careers. I encourage you to do it and don't over plan because when you try to start over planning, what you do is you miss this is moving way too fast, and by the way, it's not gonna stop.

So it requires a different rhythm and pace for you to go with. That's as much as I could dance. I almost looked I was dancing there for a second. But, it requires a whole different rhythm and pace than what we're used to in our lives, which is how do you learn something new you're one big thing.

The reason I say one big thing a day, for me it's 'cause I have vowed to learn one big thing about something that's related to me every single day, but. When someone says, when's this gonna end? I'm, it's not.

Siobhan Savage: Mm - hmm.

Jason Averbook: So it's a ha it's a habit. It's a habit change that's required of us.

Siobhan Savage: It's interesting because.

Jason Averbook: Might that wear us all? Sorry to talk over you. Might that wear us all out? Might that be too much change? Might that I can't answer the human capability effect of some of this and what it's gonna mean to people. We might be watching it already in teenagers that they're overloaded with stuff and they're thinking differently and it's hurting their mental health.

We might be watching all of that today. Yeah, so I'm not talking about that. What I'm talking about is what I think we need to do as professionals to continue to grow our careers.

Siobhan Savage: Yeah. Yeah, and I think there's one other dimension I think and Sanjay put it in the chat as well, one of the things I spend a lot of time totally hear what you are saying at an individual level to not try and think too far ahead, but the shadow side.

If I can challenge you a little bit on this, Jason, the shadow side of not thinking ahead, or at least trying to create a. Data driven picture for the future. So if you imagine, the organizations. Striving towards hurdling, towards ai and that how do we as professionals and leaders make sure that they're hurdling in the right direction?

And there's gonna be some level of, and what we're seeing and why we've set up the Work Design Collaborative, for Leaders is because there's that point that you send where it's, we're trying not to overwhelm the rabbits in the headlights. But then I have this opposite bipolar thing that I'm saying to them, which is that, and you also need to be trying to forecast because you're responsible for looking after everyone else.

And what I am. And I thought so deeply about this for quite a long time is, what is my role to play in this moment? And that's why bold and responsible is really important to me because I don't wanna be on the side of history that's just helping people harvest people out of jobs. What I've been trying to think about is how do we give people enough of a picture of.

We know the work that's being done today. I know the maturity of the ai. I can tell you what the impacts will be, and if you make these decisions, then this is what my workforce looks. So I think a lot of what I'm trying to do right now is help the community rise in the sense of give them understanding so that they can prepare leaders for that next.

wave and it all comes down to, how do we make sure that people stay relevant and how do we drive them? Because I was talking to a customer not so long ago. They were telling me that they picked these jobs, right? And they were told from a consultant and they paid a whole pile of money to find out what is our future capabilities and requirements and skills for the future.

And they drove everyone to these career pathways, right? And what they ended up turning around insane was, oh, by the way, guys, two years later, we got all that wrong. And those jobs don't actually exist anymore. And all those people spent two years of their life, wasting the opportunity to be scaling.

So I, how do we balance the world of. Not overwhelming and that one big one big thing, but also trying to navigate and steer the org. 'cause it's the, we're trying to do two things. Does that make sense in what I'm asking? It?

Jason Averbook: It totally makes sense in the way that I answer it is to is just, is make sure the why.

The way that I do this is, and the way that I encourage people to do this is to make sure that the why stays in front of you. So if you think about. Have you ever seen those cars that have that, in the dashboard where you can see how fast you're going? I'm talking about heads up display. Sorry, I should be a little more tech savvy.

But, heads up display. That's your why. Not in the car case, but make sure that whatever you're doing, you keep your why in front of you.

Are we implementing the system? Thinking about breaking down skills into tasks. I keep that in front of me and do it, which keeps me able to better position than if I three years or this is the, that stake in the ground. Then I'm stuck position earlier today on a board call that just lost all of their government contracts.

They lost all their government contracts, which was 75% of their business when they lost 75% of their business. When they lost 75% of their business, they couldn't do anything. They struggled. So because of that, they, you have to stay agile and that's what's so important.

Siobhan Savage: We had a, I think you and I had a technology glitch 'cause folks were saying that we, the technology field this for one second.

So hopefully everyone got that and apologies for, I don't know what happened there. It might be a plane flying an over in the wifi doesn't work. So in some,

Jason Averbook: in summary. I'm sorry about that. If there was that, keep the why in front of you, how do you keep people aligned? It's daily.

Why it's daily. Why it's daily, why I'm freezing more. I'll stop moving.

Siobhan Savage: Yeah. Yeah. It's too much active movement. One of the other things I think is gonna be really important is, the leadership requirement for this new era is different. And one of the things I said, I probably, I feel, maybe I should have said it so lied and should have been an inside voice thing, but I'm seeing a trend of a lot of CHROs not early retiring and a lot of shifts at a leadership level.

And, everyone talks about the future of the CHR role and what does that look with hr? And I expected to lead because I, in the AI world, you can't have the people in HR teams not connected to this. They have to be, connected to the workforce transformation, to business alignment.

what should the role actually look for A - C - H - R - O in the next two to three years? And there's folks that are starting to talk about this chief work officer. What's your view on, if I wanted to be CHRO for the top leading orgs, what is the capability that we're gonna need and what's the mindset that folks are gonna have to really be that once in a generation leader?

Jason Averbook: So there's three things that I'm gonna say and I get asked this question quite a bit. Can you hear me okay? Yep. You're good. Okay. The first one is to take HR out of your title and to take HR out of everything. I,

Siobhan Savage: I hated being called HR when I was in my previous career. Yeah. Take

Jason Averbook: HR of your title and take HR out of everything that you do.

And it's not because you did anything wrong and it's not because you did anything right. It's because the world has changed. Okay. That was a job that was created when administration of people was the only thing that I did, and what we've done is we've kept layering stuff onto it to now say, why is that doing this?

It's so, it's getting rid of that concept of hr, first of all, because ask any employee when HR calls, what do they think they're scared to death? That's not the position you want to be coming into. Mm - hmm. As a leading part of an organization. The second thing is that we have to, within the people function, break silos.

We have to think east, west, not north, south, which means we can't think recruiting comp, learning, talent management, operations. And then, oh, by the way, this group over here, they really know the people and they're focused on the experience. What?

Siobhan Savage: Mm - hmm.

Jason Averbook: It's one human. Not 10 humans, it's one human. So stop talking about COEs as the function that does this, and that's all they do.

And then, oh, if you wanna talk to someone else, you have to go here because that's not how prompts work. I'm gonna tie it back to just how do we experience life. I don't go to a chat. GPT for finance. A chat, GPT for accounting, a chat, GPT for X. I go. So east, west, not north, south. And then the third thing that I would say is that you have to be data first, because those with the best data win, not the most data.

Yeah, but the best data. So by establishing your why, by knowing where you're going, what data do I need to be able to execute that and make it your top priority? Your not your part - time priority, and I don't care how you get the data, voice input, paper, scan, OCR, whatever, but if you don't have data, you're not gonna live going forward.

You're not gonna be able to survive. So those to me, are the three things that I would say to any CHRO, whether they were about to retire or whether they're new, entering the space.

Siobhan Savage: I completely agree with you. One of the things that we have found from moving into the US market and growing so quickly is the data issue is such a real problem.

And the way that we're talking to customers is that if you are truly wanting to build in this new era of work and build an AI part workforce, that you need the critical infrastructure to enable that. It doesn't really matter so much, and I've built a marketplace so I can say this the UI doesn't really matter.

We should all be building for a world where I can, as an employee, I'm gonna demand that you have, an agent that can go and tell me about everything from my payroll to my annual leave to what my career looks. And all of this will be foundational on having really strong data. And the reality is that no customers have good data that.

There is this massive issue around data, so really solving that problem. It's not another technology thing. It's actually, to your point,. Let's get the data, make sure that they've got good data. It's not how many data points you have. It's actually good quality data that helps you make good and fair decisions on how you move work to work or how you make decisions on all of your strategic workforce, strategy, how you think about the business.

I think that is gonna be the most important thing. And the race to that I think is what's on now that I think most. Leaders have got to that head space where they know that data is gonna be required for this new world. So it's created that critical event in the market as well.

Jason Averbook: And Shavan, people ask me, every day that I speak, tomorrow I'm speaking at a baseball stadium.

every day I speak, I say, this digital doesn't equal technology. And they always ask me, later, why do you say that? Why have you been saying that for so long? There's a couple reasons. First of all. To change people's mindset, to stop blaming tech for everything. 'cause tech is only as good as the people that use it.

Yep. A, yeah. But B, that what we're talking about here isn't it's job. It's whatever your job is called. If you're gonna be hr, if you're gonna be people, if you're gonna be talented, if you're gonna be work, whatever you are, it's your job. Mm - hmm. You have to guide. Work with it probably to make sure you're doing things in a safe, secure, et cetera way, but don't count on it to develop your data strategy.

that's the stu, sorry, that's the worst thing in the world because they don't know what you need. And then you go back and you blame the technology, or you blame it, or you blame the software vendor. We are, we know what we need. It's our job to build it now, and we can't, we have to stop hiding behind the fact that I don't understand technology, so I'm gonna bring my IT person.

Siobhan Savage: Mm - hmm.

Jason Averbook: I can't

Siobhan Savage: log in. Call it,

Jason Averbook: it doesn't work. Bring them. But you have to take some accountability here as an HR functional leader.

Siobhan Savage: Yep. Yep. Yep. And you said as well that, digital doesn't equal technology. It's the same thing around, AI doesn't work without good data.

So, if you are expecting it to be a magician and suddenly perform without good data, then the AI strategy doesn't work. And I think that's where it's gonna be really critical to think about curating that critical foundation of data. And what's really interesting about what you're saying is it's not leaving it up to the chief AI officer and the data officer.

It's actually your domain expertise requires you to have data about your domain expertise and you driving that strategy without reliant on someone else to come and do it for you.

Jason Averbook: And I think that unfortunately, when it comes to ai, if just for a quick second, a lot of pe, a lot of people's first exposure to AI within a company is Microsoft Copilot,

which might be the stupidest tool in the world without good data. So I laugh at the number of people that I've seen, pull up Microsoft copilot, embedded onto a blank Excel spreadsheet. Start talking to the Microsoft copilot about the spreadsheet. I'm, there's nothing on your spreadsheet. They're, it's not giving me any answers.

I'm, you're, do you realize what you're doing here? And then what they're doing is they're saying that Microsoft copilot sucks. And it's not that copilot sucks. It's that it gave you a tool. They didn't give you the construct in which you should use the tool in order to do your job better.

They just gave you the tool or maybe trained you on well may file open, which remember when I talked about voice a few minutes ago, we shouldn't be doing that stuff anymore.

Siobhan Savage: Yeah, I should

Jason Averbook: be just stating my I word intent. My intent is to do a workforce plan. Now ask me questions. So I can create my workforce plan.

Do you see those disco lights on you? Are we supposed to start? Yeah. I hear Are we supposed to start dancing now or what?

Siobhan Savage: I Gimme one second. I think it's slightly triggering. I don't know what it is. I just pulled it. I know if it's my, I thought that new feature of that means we're out

Jason Averbook: time.

Siobhan Savage: My assistant's, wrap it up savage. You gotta go to another meeting. Oh, it is, it's exactly what you said. I found so that, co - pilot blank spreadsheet and then blaming the tool. When we first started building out in early rigid days, what we would find is, and this is a, just a little example of a similar thing to what you said, and I've got a lot of empathy for what you're saying because.

We would go in, we would have AI pulling people and AI pulling jobs, and then the AI would make the recommendation and the matches wouldn't be super amazing and the customer would be super cranky, because they would be the matchings crap. And I was, can I just show you the data that you give us?

And it would be chefs. That was it. Literally, nothing. Nothing. And it was, listen, we gotta, maybe I didn't set expectations good enough in the beginning because the reality is, whether that was us or any other product. AI is not a magician and without good quality data, it's not actually the front end vendor.

That's the issue. It's the data. And that was why we spent three years building the work ontologies. Because I'm gonna make an assumption, Jason, that you're a customer. I'm gonna call you and your data's gonna be crap. And what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna tell you that my assumption is your data's gonna be crap.

And if I can get you 80% there because I already knew enough about your organization from my data, and then we harmonize your data to that. We know we can get an 80 plus, validation rate of that data. But what you said is so true that people will just give up in that moment of innovation because they're expecting it to be magic without giving it that good data.

So I think it's very, it's a very relevant how do you set expectations around transformation in a world that? If you're in doing all these digital transformations. How do you, where does the data foundation sit on that journey for you when you're educating and speaking at baseball games and all this good stuff that you're doing?

Jason Averbook: And I think that the goal there is to switch from human machine tension to human machine teaming.

Siobhan Savage: Hmm.

Where I'm a human working with a machine and where I don't want is tension between the two of us. Okay, I can't figure out how you make this work. I can't figure out why you're giving me the wrong data.

What I want is I want one outcome. In order to get to that outcome, we have to think of ourselves as a team and what do I need as a team based on what I have as a machine and my machine's capabilities, what I have as a human to drive the best possible outcome. I think that is a core. This, I'm not, I'm preaching to the choir.

That is a core work design and life design 1 0 1 for all of us going forward is to stop the human machine tension and think about the human machine teaming.

Mm - hmm. Hmm. It's the thing you can feel I try to sit. A little bit in the side of trying to h hire people navigating that.

you and I are super privileged that we're getting to be deep in these conversations every day. Think about nothing else, but you can see how this can be super overwhelming for folks who they know I have to learn about data. They know I have to learn about ai. They know I need to learn about all these different, well upskilling themselves while thinking about the workforce.

But there is a lot. But I think the thing that I'm gonna take away the most from this session and we'll share on the channel and, after folks in LinkedIn as well, some of Jason's best posts, which are talking about this mindset and that shift, because I think that's the part we're probably not talking about the most.

I think that's the part where I probably, I go straight to technology, straight to tooling, but I, but the mindset thing that you're saying has been the most valuable moment for me to maybe stop and think about how I bake that thinking into my way of working as well. We got one more Sha

Jason Averbook: sha shaman.

Just really quickly, if I could just go back to that really quick, the reason that I, the reason that's so important to me is that go, I'm gonna go back to my kid story on that chat. GPT, their response was, I'm never gonna have to write a paper again. My response was, think about how good your papers are gonna be going forward.

Siobhan Savage: Yep.

Jason Averbook: But it was all that was the same technology. Does that make sense? That has nothing to do with the technology. The tool set. It all has to do with it. I'm never gonna have to write another paper again, or is every paper I'm gonna write now gonna be this much better?

Siobhan Savage: Mm - hmm And

Jason Averbook: that's where I would encourage us to focus on the mindset.

If we go into the tool set with the right mindset, our outcome is gonna be much better than if we just expect to do a lift and shift from how I'm doing things today to now using this tool. We're, oh, cool. What? Let's get better. Let's not just focus on the basics.

Siobhan Savage: Yep. Yeah. And I think we're unfortunately could spend all my time with you, Jason, but we're running outta time 'cause I've had a second flash of my get off the call.

the one thing that I think, this once in a generation leader moment of time where it's just so important, I think for all folks that are dialing in, for the folks that listen after, follow Jason on LinkedIn, we'll share, he posts a lot of really provocatively good. Thinking moments for me, where it takes you a minute to, think about what he's saying, which is great.

So what we'll do is, we'll pin some of that incredible knowledge, follow Jason. You're most active on LinkedIn, right? Is where most of your content goes, is the best place to find you. Jason, thank you so much for sharing your time, your perspective. Your insights. I love the way that you bring the human.

Instead of just going to digital transformation, you actually lead more on the human side, which is what I love about you. Thank you for being so welcoming to me and my babies coming to the us. I love it. And thank you to everyone that's dialing in, and everyone who's listened after. And thanks Jason.

Jason Averbook: Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it. See you

Siobhan Savage: folks.

Jason Averbook: Bye - Bye.